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Runtime: 10:16
0:00 GM Killing Ultium EV Brand
0:58 Stellantis Files 8 New Lawsuits Against the UAW
2:32 High Prices Hurt PHEV Sales
3:47 China Ready to Retaliate Against EU EV Tariffs
4:59 Continental Closer to Spin Off
5:38 Nissan Joins Bi-Directional Charging JV
6:18 Toyota Develops Portable Hydrogen Cartridges
7:15 Lucid On Pace for Sales & Production Target
8:10 Chevy Silverado EV Retails for $75,000
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GM KILLING ULTIUM EV BRAND
Whoa didn’t expect this! General Motors is killing off the Ultium brand and getting rid of its one-type-fits-all battery pack. Moving forward it’s going to use different types of battery chemistries, a variety of shapes and cells and different ways to package them. The head of batteries, Kurt Kelty, a former Tesla executive that GM hired earlier this year, told Bloomberg that it’s able to develop more batteries thanks to two new battery labs that it opened. Kelty says GM can now develop new batteries and get them into production in about 18 months, which is a year faster than before. In addition to that he says GM’s next-gen batteries will have less parts, weight and cost. But we’ll learn more about GM’s battery strategy at an investor event later today.
STELLANTIS FILES 8 NEW LAWSUITS AGAINST UAW
It’s almost starting to feel like the contract negotiations from a year ago to me where something new is happening every day. Stellantis revealed that it not only filed one lawsuit against the UAW to prevent a strike at a parts center in LA, but 8 additional lawsuits against the union and 23 Local chapters. As you might expect, the company says those 8 additional lawsuits prompted a meeting with the UAW, at which time it claims the union proposed giving full pay to workers that were temporarily laid off when it idled its Belvidere plant, which would also include 900 employees that have already transferred from Belvidere and are working at other locations. Stellantis claims this is like the Jobs Bank that started in the mid-80’s and was a contributing factor to Chrysler’s bankruptcy in 2009. It says the new proposal would put the company’s future in jeopardy, so that’s why it filed the lawsuits. The UAW disputed those claims, calling them a false comparison. Stellantis says it remains available to speak with the union about these issues, but also added “If necessary, the company intends to see this litigation through to conclusion and will hold the UAW and its locals responsible for lost revenue, which could amount to tens of millions a day, and other damages resulting from lost production due to an unlawful strike.”
HIGH PRICES HURT PHEV SALES
Plug-in hybrids or PHEVs have been hailed as the perfect bridge between ICE and pure electric, but they’re just not catching on in the U.S. yet. According to J.D. Power, despite more models being available to customers than regular hybrids, the market share of PHEVs in the U.S. is less than 2%, compared to 10.7% for hybrids and 9.4% for BEVs. It cites price as part of the problem. The average price a customer paid for a plug-in compact SUV this year was nearly $49,000 and that includes any discounts like the EV tax credit. A similar hybrid was $11,000 less and comparable BEV was even less at roughly $37,000. And even when a manufacturer gets a customer to buy one of their PHEVs, they’re not as satisfied with their purchase as someone who buys a BEV. Let us know your thoughts about plug-ins in the comments and also do you think that extended range electrics or EREVs will take over as the ‘perfect bridge technology?’
CHINA READY TO RETALIATE AGAINST EU EV TARIFFS
As expected, China is preparing to retaliate against the EU’s new tariffs it just imposed on Chinese-made EVs. China’s Ministry of Commerce released a statement saying that it’s looking at raising tariffs on imported vehicles with large engines and that it’s going to start collecting duties on brandy from Europe. The tariff on vehicles with large engines will hit the German automakers the hardest. Last year, exports of German vehicles to China with engines 2.5L or larger totaled $1.2 billion. It all stems from EU countries voting last week in favor of raising tariffs on Chinese-made EVs to as high as 45%. But the EU and China are negotiating a deal to avoid those tariffs before they go into effect next month. So there’s still hope a trade war can be avoided.
CONTINENTAL CLOSER TO SPIN OFF
German auto supplier Continental is getting closer to spinning off its automotive business. Bloomberg reports that the company has hired JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs to help it restructure. Continental plans to keep its tire business and ContiTech, which specializes in active safety and vehicle networking technology. The part that would be spun off makes brakes, chassis parts and other components. Its auto business employs 100,000 people and generates €20 billion in sales a year. But its struggling due to weaker than expected new car sales and high investment costs.
NISSAN JOINS BI-DIRECTIONAL CHARGING JV
Last month, BMW, Ford and Honda launched a new EV charging joint venture in the U.S. called ChargeScape. And now Nissan is joining the JV and will become an equal 25% investor in the company. ChargeScape isn’t for public EV chargers, instead it’s for bi-directional charging to make the grid more efficient. Cars will automatically charge when demand for electricity is low and will feed electricity back into the grid when it’s high. Car owners can earn money by selling that electricity back into the grid. And they can specify at what time of day they want their car fully charged, so it’s ready when they need it.
TOYOTA DEVELOPS PORTABLE HYDROGEN CARTRIDGES
In February we had Larry Burns on Autoline After Hours. He was previously head of R&D at General Motors where he was part of a team that developed the first skateboard architecture and also led groundbreaking work in autonomy and fuel cells. During that show Larry envisioned a hydrogen future where canisters could be delivered to your house to not only power your car but parts of your home as well. And that’s almost exactly what Toyota just debuted at the Japan mobility show. It developed portable cartridges that are small enough to lift by hand but still carry a decent amount of hydrogen. These could then plug in to a special port on your car or be used in a hydrogen-powered cooker. I’m sure you could come up with a bunch of other applications for hydrogen cartridges and if Larry Burns is right they’ll be delivered with your next Amazon order.
LUCID ON PACE FOR SALES & PRODUCTION TARGET
EV startup Lucid Motors set a record for deliveries in the third quarter. It delivered 2,781 Air sedans, up 91% compared to a year ago. It’s the third straight quarter of record deliveries for the company. Its production rose 16% in the third quarter to 1,805 vehicles, which means it relied on inventory to boost deliveries. And incentives as well. The model starts at $71,400, but according to Motor Intelligence, Lucid offered up to $19,400 off the Air sedan, an increase of 28%. Through the first nine months of the year, Lucid has delivered more than 7,100 vehicles, which puts it ahead of its target to make and sell 9,000 vehicles this year.
CHEVY SILVERADO EV RETAILS FOR $75,000
And could Chevy run into the same pricing problem as Lucid? It revealed that the retail version of the Silverado EV will start just over $75,000, including destination charges but before any incentives. The commercial version, called Work Truck or WT starts at just over $57,000. Both have best-in-class available ranges of 460 and 492 miles, respectively. But so far the market has shown there’s not a ton of demand for higher priced electric trucks
And that brings us to the end of today’s show. Thanks for making Autoline a part of your day.
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Not having home charging, I wouldn’t buy any plug-in car. That said, the one plug-in hybrid that I would have considered was a Chevy Volt. I ran purely as an EV for ~50 miles, without starting the engine if you floored it. Then, with the battery discharged, it would run reasonably efficiently, because it would mechanically connect the engine to the wheels under some conditions. The BMW i3 REx could be good for those who do most of their driving on plug-in power, but has short range on gas with its tiny tank, and gets not-too-great mpg on gas, because it runs purely in series operation when the battery is depleted.
Many PHEVs, like the Jeep 4xe Wrangler, get little, if any better mpg on gas than non-hybrids, so would make sense only if you plug them in regularly, and take mainly short trips. Still, as with most PHEVs, the engine is going to run if you accelerate very quickly.
Now that GM has abandoned the BSy “Ultium” brand, they should re-start production of the Bolt. They wouldn’t need to explain that it doesn’t fit with their EV “brand.”
I wonder if Stellantis will make the case that the UAW breached the contract and thus made the entire contract with the UAW Null and void. Then they can hire an entirely new staff that is not tethered to the UAW as there is zero contract with the UAW at that point.
The PHEV vs Hybrid vs BEV was interesting, though I think some of the data is a bit skewed. The PHEV models don’t have to cost a lot more, it’s just that the automakers often market them that way by making the technology available only on top trim level models. Ford used to sell its Lincoln MKZ and Ford Fusion Hybrid models at a very small premium to the regular model, and for one model year they sold them at no premium.
Jeep now markets the Wrangler starting at $32,000, but the Wrangler 4xe starting at $50,700. The Grand Cherokee starts at $36,500, but the Grand Cherokee 4xe starts at 60,490. These PHEV models come with more equipment as standard, but the high starting price definitely impacts the data in today’s report. I think that production capacity constraints for 4xe models prevents Jeep from offering the tech on lower priced models as sales would then outrun their ability to build them.
Not sure why automakers and politicians just don’t get it. It’s pretty simple math and if one can buy an ICE for 30k and that EV is 40k. Then how long before I save 10K in gas? Assuming 30mpg and $3.50 a gallon 10K can buy enough gas for 85,714 miles. Thats 5.7 years before I break even, driving 15k a year.
So, the real appeal is environmental. There isn’t a financial gain to sway people towards electrics. Buying a new vehicle is a losing proposition anyway. Most people that finance a vehicle aren’t at equal loan to value for at least 36 months. I would say electrification needs to hit that same target where people break even after 3 years of ownership. So, 3 years of gas is about $5250. That would justify an EV and I would say $2500 or half for a PHEV since you’ll still be buying gas too.
@GM Ultium. The logic between abandoning the Ultium brand and being capable of developing more batteries escapes me. Does anybody understand that move?
Does anyone understand why a plug-in hybrid is so much more expensive than a hybrid?
Never mind my question about price of PHEVs, GM Veteran has already answered my question.
Adjusting for “Sport S” vs “Sport” trim and number of doors, it looks like the Wrangler 4xe costs an extra $10K, quite a lot for the same mpg on gas, and 21 miles of electric range if driven gently. I didn’t check the GC, but the base version is RWD while the 4xe is 4WD, and also higher trim level. I suspect the “corrected” price difference would be about $10K, as with the Wrangler.
PHEVs will cost more than regular hybrids because they have much larger batteries. A Highlander hybrid like mine has a ~2 kWh battery, while a Grand Cherokee 4xe has a 17.3 kWh battery. Yeah, the MKZ hybrid had no price premium over the V6 for a while. The price premium for a Highlander hybrid over the non-hybrid of the same trim is $1700.
Lambo, some people buy EVs for environmental reasons, and others, maybe a lot of them, buy EVs because of the way EVs drive. There is a certain amount of appeal to that.
As far as cost of ownership, that’s still a big unknown. With home charging, “fuel” cost is much lower with an EV, but it’s still unknown what resale value will be when the EV is 7 years old with 90K miles, and nearing the end of its battery warranty.
Kit- I couldn’t see getting into an PHEV or EV unless it’s a good lease. I foresee the value dropping like a rock for an 8-year-old electric. Its going to be like the cell phone industry was about 10 years ago with a new model with significant changes every couple years and that includes batteries. If anyone has a huge battery break through while you own current battery tech the value is going to plumet. Just too many variables for me to buy in now.
@Lambo on EVs: definitely all valid points. We own an EV (Mach-e) and the value dropped significantly during the three years we have owned it, aggravated by the large price reductions of new vehicles by Ford.
And as you and Kit already mentioned the decision to purchase one was not a rational one. Now, if I had known the value drop in advance I would not have purchased the vehicle three years ago.
Lambo-I’ve never leased a car, but with a BEV or PHEV, I, too would be inclined to, so I’d know where I was. I haven’t kept any of my hybrids more than 5-6 years, but if I kept one longer and needed a battery, it would be much less expensive than for a “big battery” vehicle.
I assume there will be “extended warranties” for EV batteries, as with the service contracts a lot of people buy for ICE vehicles. I suspect a lot of data is being collected by companies to determine how to price the battery insurance.
I think GM is wise to not try to portray Ultium as if their batteries were somehow ‘premium’ batteries. Consumers currently fell that a battery is a battery is a battery and cost is the only thing they care about. Getting rid of Ultium lets GM use whichever battery they can source at the best price. If one type of battery develops a systemic problem, GM can them pivot to another choice. With their current strategy, if they hitch their wagon to Ultium, and Ultium problem could sink the whole company.
I believe GM dropped Ultium because it looks like they are going modular. Which makes sense. Design a battery module that can be configured into a battery of various sizes. So just like the smaller scale battery items we already use where it seems like almost everything uses AA or AAA batteries. Some things take two while other items may take 6 or 8. I think it makes way more sense to use this modular approach. Simplify the pack design and just use whatever you can package or need per application. I kinda thought it was already done this way but looks like GM may be looking at an expandable pack.
Lambo, in your break even cost analysis you need to add the cost of electricity (it’s not free unless you are one of the early Model S/X buyers who always plugs into a Tesla Supercharger).
A friend got in on the last of the free charging with a Model S, but, for convenience, I think he does most charging at home, except for a once a year ~2500 mile road trit.
The ‘rock and unmovable force’ positions that the leaders of Stellantis and the UAW has taken, is only going to hurt the whole company if it should continue! Both sides seem willing to cut off their nose to spite their face.
I just saw another reason in a C and D article for declining Jeep sales. They are discontinuing the V6/automatic powertrain in Wrangler.
PHEV is only 1.7% of USA sales and in decline because they are very high price and offer only about 30 miles of EV range. And when in HEV mode the fuel economy is actually LESS than a hybrid vehicle because of the heavy larger battery pack the vehicle has to haul around and the total range of the vehicle is also less than a hybrid vehicle because the gas tank is smaller to make room for larger battery pack! So PHEV owners have to gas up more often. U.S. consumers are not dumb! They are logical. So they are avoiding PHEVs. Any “GREEN” American would rather buy an EV. So PHEVs make no sense! They will remain low and gradually go away.
“High prices hurt PHEV sales” – got me thinking: I haven’t ran across a 5 year Total Cost of Ownership comparing ALL categories of vehicles (ICE, hybrid, PHEV, BEV), but probably just missed it. I’ve seen the 5 year TCO used as a selling point for BEV’s but consumers don’t buy cars this way, they only look at how much it costs now and gas mileage. So naturally hybrids are a clear winner, but their complexity surely much play a role in 5 year TCO…
spoke without looking at the Edmunds 5 year TCO calculator!
Just comparing 2024 models:
– Toyota Camry XLE 4D sedan (2.5 4cyl. 8A)
– Toyota Camry XLE 4D sedan (2.5 4cyl. gas / electric hybrid CVT)
– Hyundai IONIQ 6 SE standard range 4dr sedan (electric dd) (since Toyota doesn’t make a Camry BEV)
it’s $39K / $39K / $29K respectively.
Hybrids save on fuel but loose on depreciation (and vice-versa with ICE)
BEV’s save on fuel, maintenance, and, surprisingly in this case, also on depreciation (!!)
So I guess in the eyes of consumers who are not ready to make the leap to BEV’s, it’s win-win.
p.s. I like how Edmund’s puts a spin on TCO as ‘True Cost to Own’, as if retail consumers don’t understand Total Cost of Ownership! :)))))